tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post3009156350647264127..comments2024-02-14T03:38:31.560-05:00Comments on An Evangelical Dialogue on Evolution: Ancient Jewish Politics, Modern Science, and the Kingdom of GodSteve Martinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11734019573868663947noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-86820202630182445202008-06-02T07:03:00.000-04:002008-06-02T07:03:00.000-04:00Hi Walt (Carpenter), I think you meant to post thi...Hi Walt (Carpenter), <BR/>I think you meant to post this on the post <A HREF="http://evanevodialogue.blogspot.com/2008/05/update-on-richard-collings-struggle-to.html" REL="nofollow"> An Update on Richard Colling's struggle to teach evolution at ONU</A>. Putting that note here so others have the context. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for "not doubting" the sincerity of those of us that hold Evolutionary Creationist positions - many Christians indeed do doubt our sincerity. <BR/><BR/>I understand your position, but of course we have different views on appropriate methods of biblical interpretation. Probably not a lot of point into going into details now (For others - search the "scripture" category on the right sidebar for my own views). <BR/><BR/>One note: Colling actually has very, very little issue with his colleagues. In fact, I believe the entire biology department & maybe even the science department is supportive of his position. The opposition is almost entirely external to the university - but these "external factors" are hugely important for fundraising at ONU.Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734019573868663947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-88689511176549756842008-06-01T15:20:00.000-04:002008-06-01T15:20:00.000-04:00I have no doubt of the sincerety of Dr. Colling's,...I have no doubt of the sincerety of Dr. Colling's, Dr. Henry Morris' or your faith. But I nevertheless believe that each of you are doing harm to the Kingdom by promulgating what I believe to be false teaching. You seem to ignore the massive problems with macroevolution and how it directly contradicts Genesis' statement that each specie was created "after its kind." Morris' young earth creationism is hermeneutically unnecessary and scientifically absurd, which causes many to think that "the Bible is wrong," and keeps people from being saved.<BR/><BR/>While I am in favor of academic freedom, that freedom is granted to the institution, not the individual professor. I certainly understand the great concern expressed by his colleagues. He has no right to whine about the results.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-2650988281381647702008-05-05T04:04:00.000-04:002008-05-05T04:04:00.000-04:00Is it not important to know why New Testament writ...Is it not important to know why New Testament writers thought the people involved in the Macabbean revolt were heroes of faith, while their leader allegedly renounced violent revolt?<BR/><BR/>Wright, of course, never touches the subject of whether the Macabbean revolt was frowned upon by God.<BR/><BR/>Wright is no more than a spin-doctor.Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-74285626144660196932008-05-04T23:18:00.000-04:002008-05-04T23:18:00.000-04:00Steven C: I'm not really sure how to respond to yo...Steven C: <BR/>I'm not really sure how to respond to your grenades - it doesn't really look like you are looking to be part of this dialogue. There are lots of places on the net for general theist / atheist debates (many of them nasty) but this isn't one of them. <BR/><BR/>You may also want to check out past comments by RBH or Siamang on this blog - they too are atheists but they seem to be able to dialogue constructively and I appreciate their input.<BR/><BR/>Finally, I noticed there is a new blog call ntwrong.wordpress.com that started posting on April 22 - 4 days after I suggested a similar thing in http://evanevodialogue.blogspot.com/2008/04/miller-polkinghorne-and-wright.html?showComment=1208568300000#c4958876967069905904 . Is this your blog? If not, you may want to check it out.Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734019573868663947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-16526517549458987602008-05-04T03:38:00.000-04:002008-05-04T03:38:00.000-04:00STEVE RANNEYI haven't run across anywhere where Wr...STEVE RANNEY<BR/>I haven't run across anywhere where Wright talks about evolution but he does talk about the kindgom of God being associated with this planet, as contrasted with the dispensational idea that the planet is going to be burned up so who cares about global warming, etc.<BR/><BR/>CARR<BR/>Wright is especially good on explaining the metaphors in Hebrews 1 :- <BR/><BR/>In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, <BR/>and the heavens are the work of your hands. <BR/>They will perish, but you remain; <BR/>they will all wear out like a garment. <BR/>You will roll them up like a robe; <BR/>like a garment they will be changed. <BR/><BR/>The heavens and earth will be rolled up and discarded, in the way that clothes are changed. <BR/><BR/>The old clothes that have perished are thrown away, and replaced with new clothes. <BR/><BR/>The old clothes are rolled up and thrown away. <BR/><BR/>As I said, Wright is very good on explaining this 'clothing' metaphor, which many people up to now have failed to understand.Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-12858869051051042462008-05-04T03:36:00.000-04:002008-05-04T03:36:00.000-04:00'The Kingdom of God that Jesus preached, and ultim...'The Kingdom of God that Jesus preached, and ultimately ushered in through his death and resurrection, was not what 1st century Judaism expected either'<BR/><BR/>Why not?<BR/><BR/>What had the Bible prophesied? Surely the Bible had prophesied a Messiah who was not Jesus.<BR/><BR/><BR/>And why did Jesus tell the Samaritan woman that he was the Messiah she was expecting, when clearly she had faith in a totally different Messiah?<BR/><BR/>Isn't that deception on the part of Jesus?Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-84068158262975032742008-05-04T03:33:00.000-04:002008-05-04T03:33:00.000-04:00Was the ultra-violent Macabbean revolt backed by G...Was the ultra-violent Macabbean revolt backed by God?<BR/><BR/>Does Hebrews praise the people who took part in that revolt, promising them a future resurrection?<BR/><BR/>Of course, everybody not blinded by faith could see in 66 AD that a Jewish revolt would be a David and Goliath situation....Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-22021271275180381972008-05-01T16:48:00.000-04:002008-05-01T16:48:00.000-04:00Hi Bill, Nice quote! I like it. In a fallen worl...Hi Bill, <BR/>Nice quote! I like it. In a fallen world, having “each of the basic forces forever in countervailing conflict with one another” is probably the best humanity can do. Even though the Church was instituted by Christ, it too is fallen. That the Kingdom Jesus preached about was not about politics was confusing to Jesus’ early followers.Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734019573868663947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-32604189045926806182008-04-30T09:41:00.000-04:002008-04-30T09:41:00.000-04:00On the political side of this question, here's wha...On the political side of this question, here's what Howard Fineman has to say:<BR/><BR/><I>"We have been blessed with history’s best chance to live in the space created by equipoise among the brute forces that forever vie for dominion over mankind in society. In shorthand, they are the State, the Church, the Market, the Tribe, and the Academy (Science). Balance among them produced the golden ages in the history of mankind. But let any of these five forces achieve untrammeled control, and slavery is the inevitable result. So far, we have avoided the fate of Stalin’s Soviet Union, the Taliban’s Afghanistan, Dickens’s London, the Mob’s Sicily, or Huxley’s Brave New World. Our best hope lies in keeping each of the basic forces forever in countervailing conflict with one another. Let them make accommodation; never let them collude. Freedom exists in the space created by equipoise among them."</I><BR/><BR/>Seems relevant. When either the church or the scientific establishment seek hegemony over the other's domain, unfortunate things result. But, regrettably, the line of demarcation between them is a bit fuzzy at times.Bill Atherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04183286368309209512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-65272619425956443062008-04-29T21:24:00.000-04:002008-04-29T21:24:00.000-04:00Hi Steve R: I think your assessment is correct. No...Hi Steve R: <BR/>I think your assessment is correct. No, I haven't seen any comments from Wright either on anything to do with origins - but I'm just starting to read him. I think he's going to go right up there with other of my favorite writers like Polkinghorne.Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734019573868663947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-8974266711917466512008-04-29T14:57:00.000-04:002008-04-29T14:57:00.000-04:00Regarding your example of Wright, I've been rumina...Regarding your example of Wright, I've been ruminating about the connection. Like I said I don't know his view on creation and such but I would expect, from how he approaches his own area of study, that he would be inclined to accept science and not view it as an enemy.<BR/><BR/>You say, "We must immerse ourselves in the entire scientific enterprise" ... and "maintain an authentic Christianity" and that is what N.T. Wright does in Biblical scholarship. He doesn't ignore or explain away textual issues, he looks honestly at the history, and he builds a picture of Jesus that is way more compelling and authentic than the way Christ is usually painted by conservative Christianity. The main reaction I had when I first read him was, 'wow, Jesus is way more interesting than I thought,' and that is similar to my reaction about science and creation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-31987167708241463252008-04-29T00:39:00.000-04:002008-04-29T00:39:00.000-04:00There is definitely a parallel I've seen discussed...There is definitely a parallel I've seen discussed in varioius places. "Most flood geologists .. came from churches awaiting Christ's soon return to earth ... Whitcomb and Morris offered a compelling view of earth history framed by symmetrical catastrophic events and connected by a common hermeneutics. 'If you take Genesis literally,' reasoned Morris, 'you're more inclined to take Revelation literally.' Or as an Australian Adventist put it, 'The cataclysmic beginning of our world revealed in the book of Genesis <I>guarantees</I> the supernatural end of our planet.'" Ronald Numbers, <I>The Creationists</I>, p. 372.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-65593154303745436932008-04-28T23:12:00.000-04:002008-04-28T23:12:00.000-04:00Hi Steve R: It would be interesting to see what ty...Hi Steve R: <BR/>It would be interesting to see what type of overlap there is between YEC orgins theology & "Left Behind" eschatology. Wondering if one is almost a proper subset of the other?Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734019573868663947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-87396746661855341242008-04-27T21:27:00.000-04:002008-04-27T21:27:00.000-04:00I haven't run across anywhere where Wright talks a...I haven't run across anywhere where Wright talks about evolution but he does talk about the kindgom of God being associated with this planet, as contrasted with the dispensational idea that the planet is going to be burned up so who cares about global warming, etc.<BR/><BR/>His view of the Kingdom of God having been initiated already by the risen Christ is picked up by McLaren and also Steve Chalke and Alan Mann, <I>The Lost Message of Jesus</I>. <BR/><BR/>So I think the analogy is consistent with Wright.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-80510280073160218222008-04-27T20:48:00.000-04:002008-04-27T20:48:00.000-04:00Thanks Gordon. I'm enjoying your current series - ...Thanks Gordon. I'm enjoying your current series - particularly the last one on primary & secondary causes (http://www.blog.beyondthefirmament.com/2008/04/27/science-and-education-3/ for others reading this comment).Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734019573868663947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-31514935549376128292008-04-27T19:08:00.000-04:002008-04-27T19:08:00.000-04:00Steve, If you haven't yet read Brian McLaren's "Th...Steve, <BR/><BR/>If you haven't yet read Brian McLaren's "The Secret Message of Jesus" you might want to add it to your list. Deals with many of the same issues you mention here. <BR/><BR/>Coincidentally, my current series in Science and Christian Education will deal with this. Preparing our Christian children for successfull careers is a lot like preparing missionaries to take Christ into a hostile environment. If want to be effective, you have to immerse yourself in the environment, the language, the cutlure, etc... Folk science WILL get you expelled!<BR/><BR/>Can you imagine taking the "Expelled" approach to the mission field? "Gee, we can't go there, they might have some philosophical bias against Christian theism...Rather than do the hard work to invest in this culture, we'll just sit back and throw stones at them..." Not very Christ-like...<BR/><BR/>I'm "showing my hand" early. More about this later...<BR/><BR/>GJGGordon J. Gloverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05775671718952764368noreply@blogger.com