tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post5045731327353772318..comments2024-02-14T03:38:31.560-05:00Comments on An Evangelical Dialogue on Evolution: When Views on Evolution Divide a Church Family: One Leader's Difficult ChoiceSteve Martinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11734019573868663947noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-11076541405128343822008-04-23T13:51:00.000-04:002008-04-23T13:51:00.000-04:00Re:Maybe the subversive action is to have one of t...Re:<BR/><BR/><I>Maybe the subversive action is to have one of those Darwin fish bumper stickers (lol, though I always have a hard time interpreting the symbolism of the fish, the cross, the legs, etc.).</I><BR/><BR/>Frankly it irritates me to see how co-opted the fish symbol has become. One sees a fish with terms like BUDDHA or PHISH or even 'N CHIPS inside. These are amusing, true. But doesn't anyone in our wider culture know why the fish is associated specifically with Christianity? <BR/><BR/>Guess that's what happens when the culture warriors take over an idea.Bill Atherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04183286368309209512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-90414600019079387152008-04-23T12:42:00.000-04:002008-04-23T12:42:00.000-04:00Thanks Steve R. Just listened to the Sparks talk ...Thanks Steve R. Just listened to the Sparks talk this AM on my commute. Excellent! I think this extends & clarify's some of the stuff from Enns' I&I quite nicely.Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734019573868663947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-4977588398237092242008-04-22T11:31:00.000-04:002008-04-22T11:31:00.000-04:00Speaking of MP3 and Sparks, Sparks reads a chapter...Speaking of MP3 and Sparks, Sparks reads a chapter of his book at <BR/>http://www.taylor-edu.ca/tayloruc/academics/religion/audio_files/Sparks-Accommodation.mp3.<BR/><BR/>It was recorded at Taylor U. I read about it at http://tgdarkly.com/blog/?p=697 .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-3673416396136624102008-04-21T14:20:00.000-04:002008-04-21T14:20:00.000-04:00Steve: I'm also looking forward to Sparks book. A...Steve: I'm also looking forward to Sparks book. Also, thanks for the NT Wright mp3 recommendations from my previous post. I listened to the 1st one on the way to work today. Excellent!Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734019573868663947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-57249527764082284722008-04-20T10:42:00.000-04:002008-04-20T10:42:00.000-04:00I just finished Sparks' God's Word in Human Words ...I just finished Sparks' <I>God's Word in Human Words</I> last night and in the concluding chapter he talks about how his ideas should be handled in the local church. For the most part he says things like the diversity in the accounts of David or discrepancies in the Gospels would not be referred to directly, because people have no context and it would not serve a constructive purpose.<BR/><BR/>But he thinks evolution is an exception - 'in every direction ... Christian students are being confronted by the scientific evidence for this theory.' ... 'Perhaps, in a few decades or so, evangelical Christians will be no more troubled by the apparent 'conflict' ... than by the conflict between Genesis and Copernicus.' (p 360f) He says in his own church, a Christian high school teach taught a class in which he said that theistic evolution was a viable option. Hmmm, that air hasn't reached out here yet ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-7642086974997442412008-04-20T05:41:00.000-04:002008-04-20T05:41:00.000-04:00Hi Steve R: Well said. These situations are never...Hi Steve R: <BR/>Well said. These situations are never simple. And maybe those of us not involved should be more hesitant to pontificate on what is "right" or "not right" in these situations. <BR/><BR/>And I do follow Bovell's blog at http://evangelicalinerrancy.blogspot.com/ (although I haven't read the book .. at least not yet). I do appreciate his views.Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734019573868663947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-37997528884381724492008-04-19T10:49:00.000-04:002008-04-19T10:49:00.000-04:00Carlos Bovell's book 'Innerancy and the Spritual F...Carlos Bovell's book 'Innerancy and the Spritual Formation of Younger Evangelicals' is about the dilemma of raising youth in the world where they can't discuss something like evolution. I just was talking to a young medical student this week who says she has dropped out of church - now that she accepts evolution, she assumes faith is out the window. This kind of thing makes me want to rattle the cage, so I wonder if preserving the tranquility of the local church really advances the kingdom of God. Maybe the subversive action is to have one of those Darwin fish bumper stickers (lol, though I always have a hard time interpreting the symbolism of the fish, the cross, the legs, etc.).<BR/><BR/>But having quit my church job six months ago or so, I am now free to say what I think. When you are part of the organization, as Cliff found, you really are obligated to uphold the written and unwritten codes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-5802604156979626942008-04-19T09:24:00.000-04:002008-04-19T09:24:00.000-04:00Tor,So combining the Einstein quote with your inte...Tor,<BR/><BR/>So combining the Einstein quote with your interesting corruption of it, I presume you would affirm that religion is blind, and science is lame?Cliff Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08342566023774158670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-74562306638342708382008-04-19T05:34:00.000-04:002008-04-19T05:34:00.000-04:00“Science without religion is science; religion wit...“Science without religion is science; religion without science is religion.”<BR/><BR/>“There is no God in foxholes” <BR/><BR/>Tor Hershmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03037704048671379868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-19263173615178498752008-04-18T21:45:00.000-04:002008-04-18T21:45:00.000-04:00Hi Steven R: Oops .. sorry for missing your commen...Hi Steven R: <BR/>Oops .. sorry for missing your comment. Good point .. and sometimes the darkest times occur just before the best. <BR/><BR/>Re: substituting institution for Kingdom of God. In fact, if the affect was simply on the institution, I agree that the statement is probably not valid. Ie. we shouldn’t be so concerned with the institutional church. However, the kingdom of God is about much more than the institutional church. I think this is related to the idea of progressive revelation. Ie. God’s allowance of divorce & “eye for an eye” justice in ancient Hebrew society. In a similar way, I think we can’t expect all evangelicals to accept evolution immediately – and sometimes pushing too hard in some places will make things worse. <BR/><BR/>Edward. Welcome. Relics has been recommended to me before (in fact, by Cliff) but I haven’t had a chance to read it yet. <BR/><BR/>re: your advice, I think the important fight is to demonstrate that biological evolution does not require a compromised faith. Once that is done, the impetus to ignore the scientific evidence goes away.Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734019573868663947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-5709419454313570192008-04-18T19:13:00.000-04:002008-04-18T19:13:00.000-04:00My advice is to fight like the devil to help educa...My advice is to fight like the devil to help educate as many people as possible concerning the scientific evidence for evolution and let them make their own theological compromises after hearing the evidence. The creationists are out there night and day lecturing, pounding in their "evidences (they often use the plural) for creation." But once a Christian becomes pro-evolution they grow tired of having to struggle to stay afloat above the tide of ignorance and certainties propounded by creationists. So creationism is emboldened by its connection with evangelism, while Christian evolutionists lie somewhere in the middle, not evangelizing their fellow Christians whom they believe are already "saved," and also having to face deeper and perhaps darker questions from liberals, agnostics, atheists. <BR/><BR/>A new book that's quite good is RELICS OF EDEN that delves into the DNA evidence in favor of evolution that keeps piling up.Edwardtbabinskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13036816926421936940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7604561879604816848.post-57720459897775429322008-04-15T00:19:00.000-04:002008-04-15T00:19:00.000-04:00It could be that Cliff's action will have unknown...It could be that Cliff's action will have unknown effects on other people. There might be those that will ask him questions informally in the future. It is an interesting period now, it seems that we are on the cusp of something, but some people will have to suffer - they are like the first people out of the trenches, or something.<BR/><BR/>I know what you are getting at when you say 'something like this is less important than furthering the kingdom of God' but I have some doubts about it. Substitute 'institution' for 'kindgom of God' and see if that better describes the issue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com